By Jenelle Riley |  Backstage West

If Seinfeld was a show that made history for being about nothing, Everybody Loves Raymond is its kinder, gentler cousin--a program that has won fans and accolades for making a big deal out of every little thing. Whether it's a battle of the wills between spouses over who will be first to move a suitcase, or a brother's laziness in planning his sibling's bachelor party, the cast of Raymond manages to find laughs in some of the most universal and unlikely of places. But unlike Seinfeld, Raymond is also a show with a heart, filled with characters that genuinely care for one another and occasionally allow it to show. It's also apparent that Raymond, unlike Seinfeld, will never get the chance to get old. Star Ray Romano and creator/ executive producer Philip Rosenthal have claimed that next year will be the last for Raymond. 

Raymond also features one of the best ensembles on television, a group of actors whose work has become so fluid and reliable that four of the five cast members have already won Emmys for their roles, and the show received this year's Screen Actor's Guild Award for Outstanding Performance by an Ensemble in a Comedy Series. When this year's Emmy nominees were announced recently, Raymond was the only sitcom whose entire cast received nominations. Two of the performers, Patricia Heaton and Doris Roberts, have won the award twice in their respective Lead and Supporting Actress categories.

Prior to Raymond, Heaton was probably most recognized for her dramatic work on such programs as thirtysomething and Party of Five, roles that never hinted at the life and originality she would bring to frustrated housewife Debra Barone. And as her nosy mother-in-law, Marie, Doris Roberts has found a whole new legion of viewers who remember her work on such programs as Remington Steele and St. Elsewhere (for which she won her first Emmy, in 1983). Both performers have taken roles that could have easily veered into familiar territory and instead created two of the most indelible and true women on television today.

Back Stage West: You've each won two Emmys for playing these roles. Are the Emmys starting to feel like old hat now?

Doris Roberts: Never. Not only that, if we win, we will be triple-crown winners.

Patricia Heaton: I'll be really happy if the show wins, because I think we deserve it, and we're an ensemble cast. And this is our last year, so it would be great.

BSW: Before Raymond, neither of you was particularly known for comedy. What prepared you to do a sitcom?

Doris: I wasn't trained in comedy, but I think it's one of my talents. And what's good about that is it gets you work, but you have people who think you can't do anything other than comedy, and I fooled them this year, I think. I did a Hallmark movie [Turning Homeward] where's there's not one laugh. I'm a woman who's very right and uptight but in the early stages of Alzheimer's. It's more like the kind of work I did on St. Elsewhere. So I'm proud of that.

Patricia: I studied with a guy named William Esper; he teaches Meisner Technique at Rutgers University in New York and a private studio in Manhattan. And Meisner is a lot of improv. But even when the improv was about something serious, I tended to find humor in it; people would always end up laughing. So I think that was sort of my bent.

I think comedy is a little more of a craft; it's very musical. It has a lot to do with timing, you have to be able to hear the way something should be said. It really is like a musical score: There's only a few interpretations that really work. Whereas drama, I think, is more open and free to interpretation. You're more likely to have actors changing the words in a drama, and it doesn't make that much difference. If you change an if, an and, or a but in comedy, it can kill the joke.

Doris: It's a rhythm. If you break the rhythm, you're in trouble. We both have now worked for Neil Simon: I did Last of the Red Hot Lovers onstage, and Patty just did The Goodbye Girl for TV, and if you change the rhythm of it, you won't get the joke. It's very specific. And all those people I've worked for who have written comedy--Terrence McNally, for instance--same thing. I don't think rhythm can be taught. I saw a woman this morning in a coffee shop who was bopping around to the music, and she was so out of time I could not believe she could be that bad. She never hit one beat. And I thought that was hysterically funny.

BSW: Did you have to fight to get your part on Raymond? 

Doris: Over a hundred women read for it. I guess that's a fight. And it's interesting, I was actually directing a play, and I had no time. And my agent said, "You have not been up for anything, and we have an appointment for you Monday afternoon." I said, "I can't," and she said, "Yes, you can, we talked to your producer, and you have Monday off." It's not that I didn't want to do it; I was in over my head with the play I was directing.

BSW: Patricia, I once heard Ray Romano say that the reason you won the role was because you were the only actress who would kiss him at the audition.

Patricia: I'm sure that's true. No, Ray and I really hit it off. We were showing each other pictures of our kids. It's funny, I had a similar situation to Doris in that I had a babysitting problem, and I needed to get in and out of there. And sometimes--and I think Doris would agree with this--when you're distracted, you need to get going, you're free. You're not worried about what they think of you. It's like, Let's get down to business, do the work, and go home. And that's very much the way the show is. We work four days a week, so we work very quickly, we have very short lunches, there's not a lot of hanging around. An actor will expand the amount of time he needs to fill the amount of space you give him. If you give him five hours to do something, it will take five hours. If you give him an hour and a half, he can also get it done in an hour and a half. And I prefer that.

Doris: I also think we're all grown-ups. We come prepared, we're not wasting any time, and we all have lives to go back to. And we do our jobs expertly well, then go on and have our own life. And the best thing is, we not only like each other and that's not bull, we trust each other. And that's a very special thing.

BSW: How do you find the humor and keep it real in a show where some pretty harsh, even marriage-ending things, are said?

Patricia: It's not marriage-ending stuff. It depends, I mean. I think it's been established that these people love and care for each other. It's particularly difficult for Doris' character, Marie, because she loves everyone the most of all and yet she can be thought of as the most difficult character to deal with.

Doris: And I never do anything deliberate. I do things because I'm thinking I'm going to make it all better. I'm going to make Debra a better housekeeper, a better mother, a better wife. And I've learned that anger doesn't really work in comedy. What works, most of all, is irritation or frustration. Because anger gives it another deeper, much more vicious attitude. And you would hate this woman. I know a lot of people find her unbelievably intrusive, which she is, but you can laugh at her. And if you can laugh at me, you can laugh at your own mother. And that's why it connects.

BSW: When it came to developing these characters, did you have a lot of input with the writers?

Doris: They gave me freedom. I had no problem. I didn't add lines and I didn't change dialogue, but my contribution is my contribution, and I'm very pleased because I walk a very thin line. But women of that ilk, that age group, were never taught that they should do anything but get married at a very young age, have babies, take care of the family. Then when the kids go off, they feel that they have no purpose in life and are obsolete. So I felt sorry for them, I didn't find them unpleasant people. That's how I treat her. I have great compassion for those women. And, yes, they are intrusive and control freaks, but I've learned not to do that with my own children. She hasn't.

Patricia: We had like one rocky week the first year where, I'm not a writer, so I didn't know how to say, "This is who [Debra] is," and I wasn't completely sure myself. But she was the one [character] who I had to make up what her background was. Everybody else came with a family structure, a background, everything. It helped when they had actors come in as my parents, and we decided we were from Connecticut and were sort of opposite to the Barones, a more upscale family. It just really made it clear what her background was and where she was from and what a strange marriage match she had made for herself. I think maybe some people have questioned why someone like Debra may have married someone like Ray.

Doris: For the sex.

Patricia: Right, the sex we never have. But I think Debra has her own stuff she carries around with her. And if there was an opportunity, here or there, to deliver a line differently or something, the writers didn't know me or my character well. So it took a little while for them to hear my voice. We all were just sort of feeling around.

BSW: Doris, you once said that America is the only country in the world that doesn't honor its elders and when you turn 40, you're obsolete.

Doris: Absolutely. So much so that I was incensed about it, and I spoke to the Senate about it. I talked about ageism in America, and my opening line to them was that if you were in my business, you'd be out of a job. And it's the truth. The image-makers insist that if you're over 40, you're finished. Especially if you're a female. And I don't know where they're getting that from, because 40 is the beginning of life, quite often. A different, adult life. And you're in a better place, you're much more mature, and you have wisdom, and now they tell us no. Would somebody tell Picasso he can't paint anymore because he's over 50? Or tell Einstein, "You know, don't give me any more of your theories." Why would they stop me or anybody else in this country for being in their 70s and not allowed to finish off their life as they'd like to? Why am I dismissed? They're stupid to not honor wisdom. Thank God I'm working a lot right now, because I represent a whole generation of people who are not working. Most of my friends are not working, and it's wrong, because nobody's writing for them.

Patricia: And if you look at the fact that Doris won two Emmys competing against 20- and 30-year-old women, I think it just shows you that there are people out there who appreciate good work, regardless of what the age or the sex of the person is. I think it comes down to that, and I also think television is pretty much run by advertising, and it just seems crazy to me, since people with the most disposable income are women and retired people over 60.

Doris: When my book was coming out I was talking to somebody who worked for a magazine, and they wouldn't touch me because I was too old, I wasn't their image. So I said to this woman, "How old are you?" She said 32. I said, "Well, honey, you've got eight more years. The image-makers say that at 40, you're finished." And she's writing a story for me now that's going to be out in a magazine.

BSW: Patricia, you were very blunt in your book about the expectations put on women in entertainment, including your own forays into plastic surgery. Was there any sort of backlash from the industry?

Patricia: It was mostly supportive. I just think I want to be honest to women about what's expected of you. Doris and I live in a world where we spend a lot of time and money on our appearance, whether it's the clothes we buy, getting hair and makeup done, trainers, dieting, surgery, whatever it takes. Most women don't have access financially to that--or the time. And I would never want anyone to compare themselves and feel bad. It's just part of our business. It's not a great thing that women are so judged on their appearance, but even men are now, too.

BSW: What's the worst experience you've had in Hollywood?

Patricia: I'll tell you a story about a casting director. I was doing a show with Linda Lavin at the time, and I went in for this feature, and three times the casting director said, "What are you on, something on television? Because I don't watch television." She repeated this three times. Then she said, "Let me be honest with you. We're looking for a very attractive actress for this part." And I thought to myself, In what other business would someone have the brass balls to say that to a job interviewee? I was in a frame of mind where I really couldn't have cared less because I didn't think the project was very good, and I said to her, "Well, you'd have to be tall and blonde and stupid to say the lines in this movie that this character has to say." And she said, "Well, she doesn't have to be blonde." I think I understand why actors can be demanding and impatient, because they have to go through many years of those kinds of people who like to be in power and want to be able to push people around. And I love this business, and everyone I've met has been pretty wonderful. But I see it. It's a real test of your desire to be an actor. If you don't have the thick skin, don't bother. You have to love acting more than you love yourself.

Doris: You also have to have a sense of humor. About a year and half ago I was up for some movie, and the man said to me, "What have you done?" And I looked at him and I said, "About what?" I didn't get the job, but it was worth saying it. Rejection is hard to take; you always get hit by it. I had a wonderful agent--he's no longer with us, Ed Bondi, a crazy, wonderful man. I was up for this movie, I don't even know the name of it today, but I wanted it badly. So I called him and said, "Did I get it?" He said no. I said why not? He said, "They hated you." He was that blunt. Then he said, "But what are you going to do, slit your wrists? Some guy doesn't like you. You remind him of his wife or his mother."

Patricia: And there's so many factors that are going on behind the scenes that it's so out of your control. All you can do is make sure you don't leave anything behind. You want to put everything in the room when you go in. That's the only thing you can control, and then you let it go.

Doris: Everything except bad attitude. I was directing some plays, and actors would come in with such attitude, and I thought, How do you think you're going to get that job? No one is going to want to take you on; it's too much trouble. One man came in, and he was perfect for the part, and I said, "I love what you just did, but I think you've got the wrong beat on it. Why don't you take the script outside and work on it from the point of view that you're annoyed." He looked at me and he said, "This is as good as it's going to get." He was absolutely perfect, I would have hired him, had he not said that.

Patricia: If you're an actor and you have a chance to be a reader at an audition, take it. And watch what actors do when they come in. They shoot themselves in the foot more often than not. We had a similar thing where I was producing a Waiver play, and we had tons of people auditioning, we were way behind. We told everyone when they came in, we may cut you off, it's no indication of your performance, please bear with us and don't be offended. So a guy came in, started giving a great read, I looked at my co-producer and we nodded and we stopped him. He said, "I've been standing outside for an hour and a half, and that's all you're going to let me do?" And he stormed out. I looked at my co-producer and said, "Well, I guess he's not going to get it."

Doris: I think a lot of actors, when they come in, don't make a choice. They think if they just show up, that's enough. It's not. Make a choice. It may even be the wrong choice, but the people listening to you will know you can act. Another problem I've found was hidden anger. "Why am I coming in here? Don't you know what work I've done? Read my resume." A piece of paper doesn't tell me anything; read for me and show me what you can do. An attitude of false arrogance will stop me from hiring you. I'm not getting an actor, I'm getting attitude. We have enough of that.

Patricia: I also think you'll walk in on a situation where producers are taking a call or eating their lunch, situations set up more than not to make an actor give their worst audition. I've never understood why people do things this way, but they often do. And you just have to really be focused. And I also think it's OK, if you've been waiting for a really long time, to leave. You don't have to put yourself through anything. I think it's better to remove yourself from a situation if you're going to be angry and pissed off than to go in. It's such a difficult business. I hand it to anyone who's really attempting to make a living at it.

Doris: Young actors sometimes ask me how to get ahead. And I ask one question: "Do you want to be an actor or do you want to be a celebrity?" I can't help you if you want to be a celebrity.

Patricia: I also think what's important is to keep a project going, whether you're writing, producing, or acting in it. You have to keep focused on something. It's very helpful, when you're going into an audition, that you're not so desperate. I think that desperateness comes across to people. What keeps you from being desperate is knowing you have a performance that night, even if it's in front of 10 people.

BSW: Can you tell me something that it might surprise people to know about you?

Patricia: Doris goes out four or five nights a week--she's got her acting class, she goes to the opera, she goes to little theatrical productions, she goes to New York to see every play that's out there. And then she'll have her vacation in India. She has a passion and joie de vivre, and it keeps her young and healthy. And I don't think people know the amount of work she puts in for children affected by AIDS. She's single-handedly organized so many events and appears at these events and gets all of us to appear, which we're happy to do. So on top of all the great acting, she uses it in a smart way to do humanitarian work.

Doris: Patty's an extraordinary woman. She has four boys. Four! A husband, a household, all kinds of involvements in producing and reading plays and pitching and doing all that. How she handles all of that is beyond me.

Patricia: It's the alcohol.

Doris: Yes, she's anaesthetized. But seriously, I don't know how she does it. It's extraordinary. And those children are to eat with a spoon. They are fabulous, every one of them. To juggle that many things and do the work she does on that show, it's amazing.

Patricia: I have found myself attempting to do more things since I've started working with Doris. Yesterday I had my first surfing lesson. Because I see Doris with her grandkids, going to their laser-tag birthday party, and she's in there with the goggles on and the gun, and I thought, Of course, why shouldn't I take a surfing lesson? I've learned so much from her.